Swirls

Espermaschine · Postby **Espermaschine** » Wed Feb 24, 2016 10:54 pm

It seems there are no topics about swirls.... (or my search-fu is wack)

Tried to make one today, after i saw a tatoo on vice (no links because slightly NSFW).

My first try (black one) was with the Pencil Tool in Spiro Mode, linking patterns (Pap LPE) and live editing.
I wasnt 100% happy with the result and went for a second try.

This time splitting one path and using more patterns.

That didnt satisfy me neither, so i tried to unify the shapes and node edit the swirl. This wasnt possible because of too many nodes and Simplify wasnt an option either.
So i traced the swirl with the Bezier tool and made all node-handles completely straight - they are either horizontal or vertical. That gave me a bit more control.

Anybody has some advice for making perfect swirls ?

Lazur · Postby **Lazur** » Wed Feb 24, 2016 11:21 pm

The better you describe what is "perfect", "looking pleasant", the closer you can get drawing them.
Can you point out the flaws in the flow in these swirls?

tylerdurden · Postby **tylerdurden** » Wed Feb 24, 2016 11:38 pm

Also might search on the term "flourish". :-)

Espermaschine · Postby **Espermaschine** » Wed Feb 24, 2016 11:44 pm

Lazur URH wrote:The better you describe what is "perfect", "looking pleasant", the closer you can get drawing them.
Can you point out the flaws in the flow in these swirls?

Its the flow of thick and thin lines, that look like calligraphy. And getting perfect curves.

My final result has the problem that it has areas that are slightly uneven, although all handles are perfectly straight.

In the four colored version i found it hard to get the thickness where i want it. Everytime i tweak the thickness of the blue bit, the swirl at the end was affected in a bad way.

The Pencil Tool in Spiro mode is very "chancy" and i dont want to draw my swirls with a tablet (although i own one). Also it produces too many nodes.

tylerdurden wrote:Also might search on the term "flourish".

Ah yes. Didnt think of that term.
Searched for it now, not much info in flourish threads...

Postby **brynn** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 12:28 am

Hhm, I wonder -- has anyone heard of an Inkscape tool for making what were called French curves, when I was learning how to use a protractor in elementary (primary) school. What we had was not just a protractor, but it had these swirls at the top, which were called French curves. We never used them, but that was the only kind of protractor we could find in stores. Try to find photo.... Yes, this here

That curve must have some mathematical definition, right? I suppose if you know the right formulas, it could be done with Parametric Curves extension? Or maybe Function Plotter would be the right one?

Edit
Or are spiro splines, with or without pap, precisely that kind of curve?

Lazur · Postby **Lazur** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 12:42 am

^french curve

In my humble opinion strict use of horizontal and vertical handles doesn't look nice.
Though that is only the smallest part of the problem.

The mentioned spiro-path lpe doesn't work for elliptical arcs, popular in script/italic "copperplate" calligraphy which uses swashes.

Espermaschine · Postby **Espermaschine** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 1:12 am

Lazur URH wrote:In my humble opinion strict use of horizontal and vertical handles doesn't look nice.

Possibly. It made getting the curves right easier though. (i read that article some time ago, lol)

Though that is only the smallest part of the problem.

What is the bigger part ?

The mentioned spiro-path lpe doesn't work for elliptical arcs, popular in script/italic "copperplate" calligraphy which uses swashes.

So these were originally made with some sort of machine or drawing device ?

Postby **brynn** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 1:19 am

To answer the question, I would draw a rough path and apply spiro spline LPE. Then adjust until you like the curve. And then apply PAP, using a triangle for the pattern. For myself, I seem to have better luck with very long and very skinny triangles. Or sometimes I fork it into or 3 strands. (example)

I've actually worked quite a bit with these tools and features, although I don't have many finished products. I don't know if you would enjoy this or not Esper. But I use the Pen or Pencil in spiro spline mode. Since 0.91, I have to apply the triangle using LPE dialog, since they made the 2 triangle shapes into power stroke. (I wonder if anyone has requested to make that optional? I tend to prefer the previous PAP, rather than power stroke, for Pen and Pencil. Maybe I'll search....although LP was down yesterday, at least for a while.)

Anyway, I put in spiro spline mode and intentially make it go haywire. Then I look at the completely abstract circles and spirals and swirls, like a child sees shapes in a cloud. Sometimes I'll see something in it, then I add color to emphasize it. Spiro-turkey is an example. I'll be sad when they fix that bug.... But until then, I use it kind of like art therapy

Espermaschine · Postby **Espermaschine** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 1:27 am

brynn wrote:To answer the question, I would draw a rough path and apply spiro spline LPE. Then adjust until you like the curve. And then apply PAP, using a triangle for the pattern. For myself, I seem to have better luck with very long and very skinny triangles.

Totally overlooked that you can have Spiro Spline as a LPE on its own. I thought that only comes with the Bezier/Pencil Tool in Spiro Mode.
Great !

About the triangles. Well thats actually the problem. Its not as simple as a triangle as you can see in my first images (i have included the patterns i used).

EDIT: ah wait....you also applied Power Stroke. Will have to see what i can do with this.

Postby **brynn** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 1:35 am

About the triangles. Well thats actually the problem. Its not as simple as a triangle as you can see in my first images (i have included the patterns i used).

Yes, sometimes I end up with long skinny diamond shapes. And when I fork the swirls, the pattern can get really creative, depending on the effect I want. Here's a great tutorial by syllie of Very Simple Designs: http://verysimpledesigns.com/vectors/in ... wirls.html and another related: http://verysimpledesigns.com/vectors/in ... esign.html

Espermaschine · Postby **Espermaschine** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 1:36 am

How do i get more pink nodes ?
I know there was a trick but forgot what it is...

Postby **brynn** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 1:39 am

The pink nodes means you have a powerstroke, rather than PAP.

I think you place the mouse over a pink node, and Ctrl + click. Tutorial I wrote that covers powerstroke: http://forum.inkscapecommunity.com/inde ... article=49

To remove a pink node, it's Ctrl + Alt + click.

Lazur · Postby **Lazur** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 1:40 am

It made getting the curves right easier though.
...
What is the bigger part ?

The radius of curvature would need to change in a smooth way.
By sticking to horizontal&vertical, you can have segments "looking right" in a quarter turn.
Béziers produce a parabola-like curve, if done right the radius of curvature is smaller at the middle of the segment than near the nodes.
Likewise nodes can be placed right and you can have smoother curves if you add nodes at the middle of the segment.
(On 0.91 circles are converted to paths with 8 nodes instead the previous 4.)
If you want a smooth transition along the curve, the node positions and handle lengths should follow a rithm.

The harder part is that you don't need just laying down one side of the swirl right but
drawing two sides at the same time making the impression a pen/brush was pulled along a nice curve and the pressure varied accordingly to the curvature of that path.
Which path you can try drawing itself and use the new powerstroke/old pattern along path lpe or even the bend lpe further on as a compromise.

So these were originally made with some sort of machine or drawing device ?

Not sure about that, think it certainly needed mathematics to construct french curves.
Maybe they constructed one large curve by plotting it's points in a Cartesian-grid, used a flat spline for a rough approximation then a pantograph to scale it down for a usable size.

But for such (random) decorative swirls, it is steady hands, learning by repeating it over and over.

Postby **brynn** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 1:44 am

EDIT: ah wait....you also applied Power Stroke. Will have to see what i can do with this.

If you're referring to my examples, no powerstroke was not even invented when I made those 2 drawings. Or maybe you're referring to something Lazur posted?

Espermaschine · Postby **Espermaschine** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 1:58 am

Using Spiro and Power Stroke LPE is fun, but the results are also a bit bumpy here and there...

About PowerStroke: Ctrl + Click adds a node, while Ctrl + Alt + Click, deletes it.

brynn wrote:If you're referring to my examples, no powerstroke was not even invented when I made those 2 drawings.

Um, well then how do you get my example with a triangle pattern and no PowerStroke ?

Lazur · Postby **Lazur** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:49 am

Going back to the start, here is how I see it:

You can download the original svg if you click the image.

Espermaschine · Postby **Espermaschine** » Thu Feb 25, 2016 1:49 pm

^
This is art !
And i surely like the file-name (sick swirl), lol !

But what to make of it ?

Postby **brynn** » Fri Feb 26, 2016 6:06 pm

Espermaschine wrote:
brynn wrote:If you're referring to my examples, no powerstroke was not even invented when I made those 2 drawings.

Um, well then how do you get my example with a triangle pattern and no PowerStroke ?

With an extremely customized pattern. Really, you'd have to edit the pattern live (meaning not Paste button, but Link to Path on Clipboard button). Then you can watch as you edit the pattern, which tweak has which kind of effect. It's not necessaily quick or easy.

For the complex swirl you referred to, it might not even be possible with 1 path and 1 pattern. Maybe I'll try it here shortly. I seem to have gotten myself involved in a few other projects lately, and plus (this is a secret, don't tell anyone) I might try and help out Lazur with the spam which seems to have exploded yesterday. I can't do it on a regular basis. But on a really bad day, if I'm online, I'll try to help. However, eventually it will be beyond anyone's control -- except for our absentee admin. Eventually it will be not 1000 spam messages, but several thousand. When that happens.....

So you've tried PAP with PS? I didn't think it would even work. But maybe it does....?

Espermaschine · Postby **Espermaschine** » Fri Feb 26, 2016 7:12 pm

brynn wrote:With an extremely customized pattern. Really, you'd have to edit the pattern live (meaning not Paste button, but Link to Path on Clipboard button). Then you can watch as you edit the pattern, which tweak has which kind of effect.

Thats exactly what i did. The patterns are included in the image i posted in my first post. It may be a little hard to see.

Im attaching the svg file this time.

Postby **brynn** » Fri Feb 26, 2016 8:33 pm

Ok, here's my best effort, replicating your curves. Powerstroke not used. (I'll have to try that next, lol) Note that they probably aren't proper spiro spline curves at this point. I got frustrated trying to get the same shape you did, with spiro spline. So I got as close as possible, and then converted to regular paths, and edit until it looks right.

So of course, the pattern path is on the left, with the result on the right. It looks like a pawn, tipped over on it's side. So I'm thinking that of course there's some mathematical definition of the curve in the pawn. I know you're not into using math very much. But still, I'm thinking there must be certain curves in the pattern that result in pretty swirls.

Hhmm, maybe fewer nodes in the swirl object might make it a little smoother. Well anyway, that's my best try 8-)

Espermaschine · Postby **Espermaschine** » Fri Feb 26, 2016 8:44 pm

I think you used too many nodes on the skeleton path.

And as you can see, you got a similar problem as i had, the swirl is slightly bumpy.

P.S: im not sure how to react to your comment about the state of the site. Should we perhaps make a new thread about that ? Or would that come across as "treacherous" ?

Lazur · Postby **Lazur** » Fri Feb 26, 2016 8:51 pm

Not perfect, but at least an approach was made.
Eyeballing could go on alot longer.

Swirl2.svg: (247.03 KiB) Downloaded 181 times

Espermaschine · Postby **Espermaschine** » Fri Feb 26, 2016 8:58 pm

Wow, some stunning results in there, Lazur !

Did you construct the bottom ones from a spiral ?
Thats an idea i had as well.

Lazur · Postby **Lazur** » Fri Feb 26, 2016 9:11 pm

No, it wasn't constructed, merely fine-tuning.

Used clones to help checking the bending.

Espermaschine · Postby **Espermaschine** » Fri Feb 26, 2016 9:13 pm

Lazur URH wrote:No, it wasn't constructed, merely fine-tuning.

Used clones to help checking the bending.

Translation, please

This is a read-only archive of the inkscapeforum.com site. You can search for info here or post new questions and comments at inkscape.org/forums

This is a read-only archive of the inkscapeforum.com site. This feature is no longer available.

InkscapeForum.com

Swirls

Swirls

Re: Swirls

Re: Swirls

Re: Swirls

Re: Swirls

Re: Swirls

Re: Swirls

Re: Swirls

Re: Swirls

Re: Swirls

Re: Swirls

Re: Swirls

Re: Swirls

Re: Swirls

Re: Swirls

Re: Swirls

Re: Swirls

Re: Swirls

Re: Swirls

Re: Swirls

Re: Swirls

Re: Swirls

Re: Swirls

Re: Swirls

Re: Swirls

Who is online