heads up

[brynn]

Hi Friends,
I'm going to be a little scarce over the next few days.  I'm going to revert this awful Windows 10 system to Windows 7.  Reinstalling the operating system takes some time.  And then there's hours of configuring when the fresh system is ready.  I'll be available, just not all the time.

Lazur, you use Windows 10 don't you?  Doesn't it make you crazy when the system shuts down for hours at a time, to get updates?

Well anyway, I'll be happy when I'm back full time 

[Lazur]

Oh the os.

Currently I'm running with win 10 and somehow automatic restarts are not present.
Instead I have a sticky message on the screen to activate the system  that cannot be disabled...
when I try to activate, it goes away for one restart only.
Using classic shell to at least have a "start menu".

Actually this win 10 was installed by the store I went for a new ssd.
Previously I had a hdd, originally with a win 10 os, but after a few days time I installed linux with a gnome layout.
Not that I know anything of it or could handle it well but at least it is not full of idiotic messages.
After a while the linux part did not start up and the win 10 part also refused to run after a refresh.
"All data lost", so to speak. Haven't tried to restore the files from it. All my thesis project's original svg files were only saved there, "in the twilight zone". It is the second time of all my works vanishing on a hdd failure in a sudden, so going ssd was a must.
Too bad now I'm lacking storage space.

Well in the end I'm also using programs that cannot work on linux.

Good luck with the downgrading!

[brynn]

Well, I guess most Win 10 users have their updates set to happen while they are sleeping.  (Somehow the updates can be done while the system is  shut down, which is a little scary, by itself!)  But I don't follow a 24 hour day, so I'm never sleeping during the same hours every day.

When I called tech support to start the reinstallation, we had to wait 45 minutes, because the s ystem decided to get an update right then.  And that was after an hour and a half lock out on Tues!  Tech support actually called this progress - this is the future, they said.  Since when is taking 4 and 5 times longer, and locking out users while it happens, "progress"??

Then they removed the fully featured Windows Live Mail and replaced with a half-baked mail "app" which doesn't have rules or filters.  And the photo viewer can't display any image which consists of black content on a transparent background (like my coloring pages) - because they gave it a black background!  And the update on Tues disabled my external mouse, so that  I was having to reinstall it after every restart!  And it didn't allow me to customize the window appearance (make wider scrollbars and buttons, larger text, custom opaque colors, etc.).  I'm losing count of all the deficiencies.

Hopefully by the first of the week, I'll be almost back to where I was with setting up Windows 10 (which was just lacking setting up new partitions and my backup routines).   But cross fingers!

[vectorRex]

Well I'm still on XP Pro, that shows you what a dinosaur I am. I finally buckled down and sprung for a Retail Windows 7.0 Pro license. I installed it. I didn't like it. I went back to XP. And now that I've thrown my little tantrum (my don't we hate change) I'm going to intall it to a new build I have in the works.

What I wanted to say was this: This is the first time in my life (60) I've just gotten so sick and tired of Microsoft's nickle-and-diming me that I have decided to build a LINUX machine. MS's operating systems are  B.L.O.A.T.W.A.R.E. and I've just had it with their OS crashing, crashing, always crashing. It's not like I have an old system, or went on the cheap with my motherboards. Don't get me started on licensing! It drives me nuts.

So when I saw all these horror stories on Microsoft's tech support communities about Win10 I congratulated myself that I'll be aligned with the majority of Windows Users, and in going forward I'm actually going back!! 

[brynn]

Yes, I'm right behind you (age and operating system, lol)!  That's why reverting to Windows 7 will work for me.  The first few tech support people I talked to said, "this is the future, you better just get used to it".  I gave them a nasty response!  But still, I will need a working Windows system to fall back on, while I learn how to use Linux.

But as the timing has worked out, I need a new computer now.  After many, many hours on the phone with tech support, I found out that using the reinstall discs from my old Windows 7 system doesn't work after all.  I can't activate it.  So now, the Windows 10 system, which was reverted to Windows 7, and hacked to pieces by tech support people, and is now broken, is going back.  It's their own fault, really.  They should have known I wouldn't be able to activate it, and that's the problem why it wasn't working.  But you know those guys.  No offense to any members here, but they all seem to think they know what they're doing, when most of the time, I think they don't.

As it turns out, it IS possible to buy a brand new Windows 7 system, even now!  It will take a few weeks for my credit card to be refunded, and I can't buy it until that happens.  So hopefully this 6 year old computer, which has died twice already, and miraculously came back to life twice, will wait that long.

I probably can't get a Windows 7 system with a CD/DVD drive, like I want.....although I think I might call Lenovo, and find out what they can offer.  I've been using Dell until now.  Does anyone know how the tech support for Lenovo is?  But if not, I can buy some flash drives to transfer my files.  (if this computer doesn't die completely)

Yeah, at least half of those tech support people told me they don't like Windows 10 either.  I mean, I just don't know what MS was thinking.  Who ever heard of locking the user out of the computer while it goes to get updates.  That's not progress!  And not only it locks users out, it does it without notice, and it takes 3 or 4 times longer than before, to get updates.  It's absolutely outrageous!

I'd be interested to see some kind of statistics on user satisfaction with Windows 10.  It must be an all time low for MS.

Anyway, if I seem to be away for much longer than usual, it's probably because this computer died.  I'll get back as soon as I can.

[mikey]

Ref; http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/08/windows-10-anniversary-update-breaks-most-webcams/

I'm so glad that MS doesn't own my gear anymore. IMO The best part of the article is on pg 2 after he asks; "How do you know what to test when you don't know what's new?" He also tells of a possible workaround for the webcam issue in the last paragraph.

BTW As related to the question I quoted, here's a refresher on recent MS policies; https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2016/08/windows-10-microsoft-blatantly-disregards-user-choice-and-privacy-deep-dive

[brynn]

Amazing!

I'll probably have to unsubscribe to emails, but I signed that petition.  As I wrote there, even if MS were to fix everything that's wrong with Windows 10, it wouldn't change my mind about leaving Windows.  I just want MS to know what happens when they lose a customer's trust.

Hah!  When I was setting it up to return the new Windows 10 system, they first offered me $50 to let their tech support people fix my complaints (as if they could - it was tech support that broke it).  When I turned that down, they upped it to $90.  They could refund me the entire purchase price and I wouldn't take Windows 10 for free.  I sure do wonder how many are being returned though

I need to decide which Linux system to get, and find a good support forum.  I'm going to need it!

[mikey]

Good general info; https://distrowatch.com/

Distrodiff is an obvious consideration. Extreme example; http://vop2.net/caps/

Many distros can boot 'live' from DVD or thumbdrive giving you the opportunity to get a look before installing.

I'm currently spending a bit of time with the new Subgraph alpha; https://subgraph.com/ (not even close to ready for prime time)

Considering what you guys are into around here, you might want to check out my sig.

[Lazur]

I was trying to install ubuntustudio before but it didn't work. Was it an unsupported graphic card or some missing drivers, I don't know.
So my idea was chosing the one linux system with the most users, and a version which is supported for the longest.
As a result instead of ubuntu I landed opensuse.
Can't say I could get all the basic features working, like running programs as root -sudo didn't work- but even that way it was better by a tad bit.

On the downside the gnome layout burned in some pixels on the top of my screen, that icon was really useless.

[brynn]

mikey, yes, I've checked out Unbuntu Studio in your sig.  Not in a deep way of course.  But just casually asking around, and noticing the kinds of systems when I'm helping people with Inkscape, I haven't seen any big recommendations for it, within the Inkscape community.  I know a couple of people who love Ubuntu in general though.

I have the impression that Ubuntu is even more advanced than Linux, in terms how easy it might be for former Windows users to learn.  A while back, someone gave me a website where you can enter the characteristics of the kind of system you want, and it recommends which Linux distro might be best for you.  There's one Linux distro that specifically is made to help former Windows users convert to Linux.  Even though that sounds perfect, I'm old enough to know that just because it sounds good, doesn't mean it is good.  And it was consistently giving me another Linux distro....can't remember which.  But there was only a couple of Ubuntu results, and all the rest (15 to 20) were Linux. 

Going from Lazur's suggestion - widely used, long history, I might go with Linux Mint.  I have seen a lot of Inkscape users with that.  But yeah, maybe I will try getting some on usb drive.  Not sure if I should stress out this old computer with that....but running from a usb drive, maybe it would not stress it out at all??  I probably need to buy some of those drives, because I might not be able to get a Windows 7 system with a disc drive.

Well, I have a lot to learn.  Thanks for the info mikey.

[mikey]

@ Brynn

Your comments seem confused but, being new to nix, quite understandable. As an FYI, I should probably mention that Mint(my current is 18 Sara) and Ubuntu are both Debian and therefore both quite user friendly IMO. As for my preference with all Debs, I now always choose xfce when there is a choice. Whether multi-boot, multi-device, or VM, having all my sys use the same environment is very handy.

Xfce is a collection of programs that together provide a full-featured desktop environment. The following programs are part of the Xfce core:

Window Manager (xfwm4)
Handles the placement of windows on the screen.

Panel (xfce4-panel)
Program launchers, window buttons, applications menu, workspace switcher and more.

Desktop Manager (xfdesktop)
Sets the background color or image with optional application menu or icons for minimized applications or launchers, devices and folders.

File Manager  (thunar)
A modern file manager for the Unix/Linux desktop, aiming to be easy-to-use and fast.

Session Manager (xfce4-session)
Restores your session on startup and allows you to shutdown the computer from Xfce.

Setting System (xfce4-settings)
Configuration system to control various aspects of the desktop like appearance, display, keyboard and mouse settings.

Application Finder (xfce4-appfinder)
Shows the applications installed on your system in categories, so you can quickly find and launch them.

Settings Daemon (xfconf)
D-Bus-based configuration storage system.

Xfce is also a development platform providing several libraries, that help programmers create applications that fit in well with the desktop environment.

Xfce components are licensed under free or open source licences; GPL or BSDL for applications and LGPL or BSDL for libraries. Look at the documentation, the source code or the Xfce website (http://www.xfce.org) for more information.

EDIT: Ref; https://www.linuxmint.com/download.php Note the ISO flavors incl xfce.


EDIT2: This is likely the most useful comment here yet. Don't forget.

Many distros can boot 'live' from DVD or thumbdrive giving you the opportunity to get a look before installing.

It only takes 5 minutes to burn and boot a live look.

[brynn]

SO confused.  This whole experience with the new Windows 10 computer has been such a waste!  But challenging my limited expertise, and consuming my limited energy.  And so much more to learn.  Really, I can only face it a step or 2 at a time.

Yes, I think I do remember reading something about xfce (few months ago, when Steve told me about Windows going to the clouds).  What is the alternative to xfce?  You have to use something like Windows Run window to find things?  (Run is hidden in Win10   )

Definitely, I'll be trying some usb drive or disc drive demos!

[mikey]

Much of your confusion will clear once you start using one or more nix sys.

"What is the alternative to xfce?"

Which desktop controls are offered depends solely on the particular distro dev's choice. Some don't offer any choices while others may offer half a dozen. As example, these two offer no choice(only xfce); https://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=ubuntustudio & https://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=backbox While as already noted, this one offers many choices; https://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=mint

"You have to use something like Windows Run window to find things?"

Sorry, I don't understand the query. Most apps run by selecting the associated launcher in the menus, panels, etc. Command line switches and apps requiring it can be run from the terminal. Editing the hosts file is a good example since privilege escalation is needed.  3 command  examples using 3 diff text editors for this purpose;
sudo -i gedit /etc/hosts
sudo nano /etc/hosts
or
sudo vim /etc/hosts
The first one is a GUI solution.
Later on after you've gotten a bit more familiar, we can discuss gksu which is much more flexible than sudo.

I have no idea whether this answers to the query or not but I HTH.

[mikey]

BTW Brynn, while you learn about nix, there's absolutely no reason why you can't maintain W7 and any other sys side by side on the same drive. While not actually required, I suggest using separate partitions for each. That way, you can use what you know while learning others too. My own primary device has 8 sys listed in the MBR.(I use Grub Customizer) Also, even tho I haven't even looked at them in several yrs, I also keep clones of my old W2KP & W7U stored on one of my mini-racks(made using the live Clonezilla). As usual, there are plenty of options.

[brynn]

Uh, yeah, that's the plan.  I'll replace this Windows 10 computer with a computer having all the same configuration ( 8 gb ram, 1 tb hard drive, non-touch screen, etc.) except it will have Windows 7 Pro (because you can only get the pro version now).

Then I'll do my research, and buy some distros on removable drives, to find one that I think I like (or maybe download them myself).  Then when I finally decide which one I want, I'll install it right beside Windows 7 Pro.  And by the time Windows 7 support ends, I should know that Linux system well enough to be on my own.

I'm not sure if "dual boot" is the same thing as installing on a separate partition (or the opposite).  But a 1 tb hard drive should be plenty of room for both.

I'm curious you mentioned the hosts file.  I thought that was unique to Windows.  You have such a great talent for confusing me!

sudo -i gedit /etc/hosts
sudo nano /etc/hosts
or
sudo vim /etc/hosts

I have a headache just looking at that.  I hope there's going to be some Linux distro that I can use without using the command line or command prompt or whatever you call it?  I'm definitely not up for learning any kind of code.

[mikey]

and buy some distros

  If you're gonna be a Nixer, you'll need to loose the MS mindset. Nixers don't buy software. Long live Open Source!
Seriously, if you don't have the burning wares, I can snail mail you a few live discs ready to run. I'll even sit on the phone and walk you thru any installs you want to do. Afterwards, you'll be saying; "Why was I being so timid?"

BTW I have a question for you here; http://vop2.net/caps/caps2/

"You have such a great talent for confusing me!"

Yep, I've noticed that. 

EDIT: Heres just a few resource links from my bookmarks;

http://linux.softpedia.com/

http://www.techsupportalert.com/content/best-free-software-linux.htm

http://www.ubuntufree.com/apps-for-ubuntu/

http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/

[brynn]

Oh no, I don't have that frame of mind - I've been using open source more and more.  I realize that I can probably find a way to get them without paying.  But I just saw some ads (I think it was on DistroWatch).  It's going to depend on which ones I want to try, whether they have any available, and whether I'm lazy and want to buy one (just $2 or $5, iirc, nothing outrageous) or download it myself.  Also depends on if instructions are clear, if there are instructions.  I definitely have 'new usb drives' on my shopping list.

Thanks for making the screenshots.  I do expect that I'll be able to at least stumble around at first.  The part that worries me so much, is when I've casually browsed some forums, questions from Linux users are often about making the correct code for something.  Not like programming code, but for something local, like commands I guess.  Or yeah, scripts maybe.  And something I read somewhere said to forget about the Start menu.

Plus, my first experience in a Linux forum was not so good.  Here all this time I thought Linux users were such power users, but at least those in the forum where I posted, sounded like they had never heard of a programmable mouse.   (answer is it might or might not work with Linux, depending who you ask)

I'm prepared to learn a handful of those commands or scripts or whatever, if it's necessary.  And maybe after a few years I've learned a couple of handfuls.  But if it's required to do everything, I'm just too old.  As long as there are icons and buttons and text links and options.....as long as it's built to be relatively intuitive, I'll get there.

Oh, that's so sweet and generous to offer to make me some media and hold my hand!  I think I can  handle the research part - testing distros from removable media.  But I might take you up on a little coaching, if I need help installing whichever one I choose.  I assume I'll have to go into some unfamiliar place if I make a partition or to install it however I decide....maybe DOS?, or maybe it would just be safe mode....I'll find out 

Oh yay, and more articles and info while I'm typing!  Thank you so much for taking the time and energy, to find info for me.  I appreciate it so very much!!

Just one question is bugging me right now.  I thought Ubuntu and Linux were related, but still different distros.  But it sounded like you said you have both Ubuntu Studio and Linux Mint in the same distro.  How does that work?  Thanks

[mikey]

It'll all come out in the wash. 

ust one question is bugging me right now.  I thought Ubuntu and Linux were related, but still different distros.  But it sounded like you said you have both Ubuntu Studio and Linux Mint in the same distro.  How does that work?

Let's try this again; Every sys mentioned here (except Windows) is Linux. The term 'nix' is slang for Linux/Unix. Linux Mint is an Ubuntu-based distribution(distro) and both are built from the Debian core. Mint is but one of the 8 sys installed on my primary device(multi-boot). However, I have dozens installed across my LAN in various devices(mostly for research). Diff distros are designed and optimized for various functions. As an example; UbuntuStudio is optimized for multi-media development and why I suggested it for you guys. HTH

Edit: Another link for ya; https://ubuntuforums.org/index.php

BTW In case you haven't noticed, I always get a bit excited when a friend decides to cross over to nix. 

[Steve]

There are a number of ways to prevent Windows 10 from doing the things you don't want it to. I've got mine set up so there is no info going to M$ and updates are done when I want them done.

Having said that, mikey's idea is the way to go. I just wish I had the motivation to do it myself.

[brynn]

mikey, so you're talking about 2 different os -- Ubuntu Studio and Linux Mint are not together, they're separate systems?  Just like I'll eventually have Windows 7 and some Linux distro on my computer, but they're still separate os.  That's what I thought originally, but something you said made it sound like they were together.

Hey Steve!  This is a little bit crazy idea, but maybe we could plow through this adventure at the same time, sort of together, but separately of course?  What one of us doesn't understand, the other could explain, and vice versa.  If it's something neither one of us understands, we could ask mikey.

I can't do much until my new computer gets here, which will be at least 2 more weeks, and maybe 3 (except read a lot).  But I'll be on my way soon.

I thought you didn't want to follow M$ into the cloud.  Did you change your mind?  I read something that said it's nearly impossible to stop Windows 10 from sending info back to M$.  You can stop some of it, but it's hard to find all of it.  So even though Windows might know that you don't want it sending info back, info is still going back without telling you.  Just wait until Windows is in the clouds -- you'll have no choice at all probably!

The problem with the updates for me, is that I don't follow a 24 hour per day schedule (maybe something more like 36 hour days).  So I'm not always sleeping during certain given hours.  And the update schedule can only follow 24 hour days.  So no matter when I tell it to get updates, it's going to be locking me out sometimes.

So anyway, maybe we could lean on each other through the process?

[brynn]

Well, doing my research, I found this article:  https://www.lifewire.com/choose-best-linux-distro-for-needs-2201172

which says

If you want to try something other than Windows and you are worried about Linux relying too hard on the command line try Ubuntu because you won't need the terminal window at all

[brynn]

Moini gave me this link a while ago:  http://distrochooser.de/?l=2.

At first it was consistently giving me Zorin OS first and PCLinuxOS 2nd.  But many of the questions I don't understand, and some of them I could choose either response.  So after I tweak several of my answers, now it's giving me UbuntuGNOME 1st and kubuntu 2nd.

It's all very frustrating, because I've found several articles which profess to know which ones are best for beginners, and those are usually Ubuntu, LinuxMint and Debian.

But, I guess that gives me 6 or 7 to test via removable drives media!

[Pilosopong Tasyo]

Hi Brynn,

Are you familiar with, or have heard of, virtualization/virtual machines (VM)?  It's a handy way of trying out/test/use different operating systems without having to repartition or set up multi-boot or buy/burn discs or flash drives.  You can run one or more operating systems on top of your main OS, all at the same time.

Nice feature with virtualization is snapshots.  Once you install a VM and created a snapshot, you can play/mess around with it, and if it so happens you FUBAR'd the VM, all you need to do is restore the snapshot and the VM is good as new (all the messing around gets undone).

So, if your hardware has enough muscle (i.e., processing power [VT-enabled CPU is a big plus], RAM, plenty of free storage space), you might want to try virtualization as an alternative for testing out Linux distros.

Here's a sampling of what I have on my workstation now (Ubuntu 16.04 64-bit, Intel Pentium G4400 @ 3.3GHz, Intel HD Graphics 510 [Skylake], 8GB RAM):

• Ubuntu 16.04 desktop running Unity DE* - http://i.imgur.com/6aHGuyw.png
• Booting Windows 7 - http://i.imgur.com/Z0mepzJ.png
• Windows 7 running on top of Ubuntu 16.04 - http://i.imgur.com/OExVE5M.png

*DE - Desktop Environment, a collection of related packages/programs that define the look and feel, and ultimately, the user experience.  Windows only has one official desktop environment -- the "Windows desktop."  Linux distributions (nickname "distros") OTOH, have a myriad of DEs to choose from.  Popular ones range from 'light-on-resources' the likes of LXDE and XFCE, MATE, to eye-candy laden heavyweights like GNOME Shell, Unity, Cinnamon, KDE.

[brynn]

Oh yes, I've heard of VM, but I've never used one, and not very familiar.

What would be the benefit of installing on a virtual machine, rather than using usb drives, to try out different distros?

Oh, that snapshot feature sounds like almost the exact same thing as Windows' System Restore!

[Pilosopong Tasyo]

What would be the benefit of installing on a virtual machine, rather than using usb drives, to try out different distros?

On top of my head:

• Flash drives / writable discs are not necessary
• Snapshots
• No need to partition your hard drive only to figure out later on how to unpartition should you decide to remove one of more OSes
• You don't have to reboot every time you need to do something in another OS
• You can run two or more operating systems at the same time
• Virtual machines are isolated from your main OS