Power Stroke, gen help

[flamingolady]

I have some gen questions re: power stroke.  I have searched far and wide and haven't found a lot of info about it, the most in-depth I've found is a short tut or two on YouTube.  There isn't anything about it at all in the official manual, at least not under Power Stroke or Stroke - not that I can find. 
So, am attempting to make a font, and power stroke appears and is a Godsend!  all comments and convo re power stroke appreciated here.  note:  I'm calling the object I draw a 'line', not sure if that is correct, this is BEFORE I have converted to a path, so still in power stroke mode.  (just to clarify).   ok, having said that:

1.  I am having issues with the nodes multiplying and disappearing.  Evidently you can add or delete them, saw a post from Brynn that said to use ctrl click, but it doesn't always work.  The alt + click brings up a box to modify a node, and I have no idea how that works.  I've had to delete my entire line and start from scratch on more than one occasion to get the starting node back.  Is there a list somewhere of tips and tricks?

2.  The weight does not appear to be always accurate.  I've created one entire lower case alphabet so far, and for example, all of my weights are set to 1 and it looks fine, but when I set all nodes to 1 on the next character, it's 3 times smaller.  That can't be right.  I have to set the nodes as weight 3 for it to look the same.  What could I be doing wrong, or is this a bug?  It has happened about 4 times out of the 26 lower case alphabet, and seems to happen on newly created lines, not duplicated ones that the weight is changed on. 

3.  How do you unlink lines when duplicating?  Power Stroke appears to act like a tiled clone, when I chg the weight of one, all of the ones that I had duplicated from also chg, not what I want.  I don't see any unlink button.  (when you make an alpha font, you typically can use about 8 letters to  make most of the alpha set, like an 'n' turned upside down becomes a 'u', the 'b' become the 'd,p,q' when turned, but slight adjustments need to be made.   So when linked like this, it prohibits duplicating them, and slows down the process.

4.  It's sometimes hard to tell which node is the beginning, middle or end, esp when you add nodes.  Does anyone else think it'd be useful to have 3 diff colors, like a green for the start node, pink for middles, and red for ending node?  Or if not the color, chg the shape of the node at least?

Aside from a few stumbling blocks, I tip my hat to whomever created this, it's quite amazing! 
thanks
dee

[brynn]

Hi Dee,

1 - I haven't experienced Ctrl-click not creating a new node.  They are literally right on top of the highlighed pink node, so you do have to drag them away, to really see them.

I did just now have an experience using Alt-click, which caused one of the pink nodes to disappear.  The object was acting like it was there, but I couldn't see it.  After I moved the regular nodes around a little, they showed up again.  Should probably look into whether it should be, or maybe has already been reported (as a bug).

The little dialog the shows up with Alt-click seems to allow you to change the position of the pink node by a specific amount.  I haven't figured out what it's related to.  Maybe the next closest pink node?  And the value for Width sets a specific width at that pink node, as far as I can see.

2 - I'm not sure what weight you mean?  It seems like I've heard of a weight related to fonts.  Or is this something with Inkscape?

3 - Hhm, this is about weight too....  I'm lost on that.  Are you also using another LPE?  PAP - no weight value there....

I don't have the experience of duplicated powerstroke objects acting like clones.

4 - I find it hard to see the pink nodes.  But I don't have any trouble seeing which one is which.  I wonder if zooming in might help?  There is an option to make nodes and handles larger.  But it make all of them larger, not just certain ones.  Inkscape Preferences > Input/Output > Input Devices > Handle size.

Are you using some kind of tutorial to make a font?  I've thought about it from time to time, but whenever I start to look into it, I get overwhelmed.  I guess it's not that easy to create good quality font.

[flamingolady]

Brynn, thanks for your response.  note, I added a new issue at the bottom. 
1.  Evidently I didn't realize I had to move the node, because in further working with it, ctrl click does add a new node. Some of the new nodes appeared next to the starting one. Maybe that's where the position box comes in... or maybe I was expecting it to chg color or something.  So that answers one issue.  Still have issues as you do with the Alt Click not deleting nodes.  Will it let you delete a start or end node?

2.  The weight (width) I'm referring to is what you mentioned in your very last sentence of your para number 1.  (ref to using alt click to assign a position and width).  I guess I'm calling it weight when it's really supposed to be called width - sorry about that.   When I set the width to 1, most of the line widths are set at 1 as expected.  However, sometimes when I set the width to 1, it sets it as a 1, but the line physically shows a different/much smaller width, it's more like one-third of the width it should be. 
BTW, I have no clue what the position does either, seems like the starting node would be 0, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

3. This is about linking/unlinking a duplicate line to the original line, not about weight/width (see my first few words, yes, I rambled off in attempting to explain it, sorry). 

4.  I can see the pink nodes, but when you have created several nodes in one line, esp if you've flipped the line (like flipped a b into a p), it gets difficult to figure out where the starting and ending points are. I end up with nodes on both sides of the line, so which side is the start side?  can't tell simply by looking at it.  You have to open the Alt Click menu, and see if it's a positive or neg number, but that doesn't always help. The position makes no sense to me, so that doesn't help.  If the beg. and ending nodes were diff colors, shapes or size, it'd make life easier, it would save time, that's for sure.

5.  (new issue).  Currently you can't use Align while in power stroke mode. Are there any plans to chg this?  The advantage to using power stroke is to line up the nodes to make a perfect character for a font, part of that is equally spacing the nodes, but it can't be done in power stroke mode.  It would add quite a boost to be able to use the align features (and it's needed while in power stroke, not after you create the path).

6.  ref:  your font questions.  I'm basically clueless on this, this is my first earnest effort.  I tried once before, but could never get the characters quite right using b spline, you can imagine.  The power stroke is my answer, it doesn't go wonky. 
Basically, I just drew a few reg lines and grouped them together, to use as a make shift template.  eg, between these two lines are the size of the lower case body, the next one up is the height (of say the 'n' left side cap), the tallest line is for the tall pieces of the t,b, etc.  same thing below the main body.  I kinda used times new roman as a guide on heights. Then I decided if I wanted a butt or round end, etc, if I wanted any end to be skinny or fat, etc.   ok, so that guided me to the lower case. 
When I finish the upper case, I've (just) chosen to use a free open source site, called fontstruct, where I plan to place them and turn them into a real, usable font. Not sure if I have to download their pgm, most likely.  I think they only do open font, not true type (TT), there are places where you can pay to have them turned into TT.  Before uploading to that (or any) site, you must turn your power strokes into a path.  I believe you have to upload one character at a time, placing them precisely into their template.  I haven't got that far, and hoping that doesn't trip me up.  Just found the site and am starting to read about it. You can build your own fonts there too. They call each piece of a character a 'brick', and you build your font, brick by brick.  That part confuses me a little.  I like drawing my own in Inkscape, but it's very good for those who don't use Inkcape or drawing prgms.

thx
dee

[flamingolady]

I've attached an svg file showing the width issue.  Just to note, I duplicated the 's' from another svg file and pasted it into this one, initially the width showed 32, then it changed on it's own to 30, not sure how or why.  The 't' remained at width 1.  I then duplicated the 's' again in this file, and it settled in at width 3 again.  It went wonky though, would not unlink from the original, I tried to move it around on the page, it simply snapped back to the original and couldn't be moved. I ended up deleting that one.  Something is def wonky with the power stroke. 


power stroke width.svg
(13.36 kB . 294x203)
(viewed 878 times)

[brynn]

Hi Dee

1 - Ctrl + Alt + click can remove the control nodes (pink).  I can remove any and all of them.  Although the path disappears when the last one is deleted.  I don't know if it's supposed to or not.  But I can't think of any reason why you want to delete them all.

2 - Oooh, width.  Ok, so when you apply powerstroke LPE to a path, it's no longer a path with a stroke.  It becomes something like a closed path with a fill and no stroke.  A lot like what you get with the Calligraphy tool.  So if you adjust the stroke width, it should have no effect at all, unless you specifically add a stroke first.

Actually, I'm not even sure if you can add a stroke to a powerstroke.....  Aahh, yes you can!

As far as I can tell, the Position setting is the position of the pink node relative to the regular path nodes.  Because if the pink node is between the first and second path node, the position is 0.something.  If it's between the 2nd and 3rd node, it's 1.something, and etc.  It must be a way to precisely place the contol node, although I can't think of a situation where you could use it.  It just seems like the powerstroke is more suited to imprecise things.  But those developers are very clever.  There's probably is a use for it.

3 - I wonder if you're clicking the clone icon, instead of the duplicate icon?  They're right next to each other on the command bar.  Because duplicated objects are not linked in any way.

4 - How do you get the pink nodes to be on both sides?  I can't seem to drag them around the end of the path.

5 - Well I was just thinking that you might have invented using powerstroke to create a font!  I've always thought about making a font someday, but never have studied how to do it.  It seems like I started to do it many years ago, and I was using something like a pixel editor.  But I don't even remember the name of it now.  And so I have no idea how fonts are usually made.

So you mean you want to align the pink nodes?  I wonder if they snap?  Have you tried?  Oh yes, they do seem to snap.  Maybe you could use a grid?

I don't know if Font Forge is still around, but I used to hear references to it, about making new fonts.  Also, you might look at Open Font Library (there's a link on the index page of the forum, in the Links box).  They're related to Open Clipart, I think the same owner.   I found a lot of info, and I think some tutorials on making new fonts there.  (The last time I looked, might have been a couple of years ago.)

[flamingolady]

1.  ah, I wasn't holding down the ctrl with the alt key, that's it.  ok, i can delete now.  thanks.
2/3.  You have to start with using the pen/pencil tool to draw a line or a part of a font, then apply the LPE of power stroke.  Basically you unset the stroke and fill it with a color. Not sure why it's called power 'stroke', as it isn't about manipulating the stroke.  It keeps it as a line (well that's what I'm calling it), and only when done drawing do you change it to a path.  I thought power stroke was created for fonts, as that's the first thing I thought of.  The weird thing is that you can't make an 'o' with one line drawn in a circle.  I've tried and tried, it gets all screwed up, I assume because it can't distinguish the starting and ending point, since they join.  It doesn't like a lot of lines and curves, things get wonky, so I'm attempting to make one half of an 'o' and duplicating it, still has issues.   

2.  Oh, I am using ctrl + D for all duplicating, so it's not an issue with hitting the wrong thing, I've always used Ctrl + D.  My current issue is drawing an 'S'.  The nodes somehow jump out of their 'skin', they move away from the drawing and don't want to get back in, never ever seen anything like this before.  Then, you are unable to move it, if you try, it jumps all over the page, very strange, has to be a bug, or something strange. I've deleted the S several times now. Some characters simply need several power strokes grouped together. Wish power stroke info was in the manual. 

4. To answer your question, to add a node on the opposite side, type the width in as a negative number, ex -1.0.  Took me a few tries to get that one.  I have troubles with any or all of the pink nodes disappearing, never to return.  Occasionally they will return if I add a pink node and move it.   

5.  I want to align the nodes in the line (or part of the drawn character), once you apply power stroke it doesn't work. 

6.  new.  I can't figure out what 'sort points' or interpolation type is about either.  Any ideas on that?   We may just be able to write the manual after all this. 

[brynn]

I noticed in the SVG file you provided, that the s had a bspline LPE applied, as well as the powerstroke.  I don't know if bspline is like spiro spline, but there is a bug with spiro spline where if you move the path nodes in a certain way, you get a page full of scribbles.  I've seen the powerstroke do something like that, although it's not exactly the same thing.  But that might be the problem with the s.

But yes, it is very tricky trying to make tight curves with the powerstroke.   Hey, what if you made a giant S?  Then maybe you could get around this problem to make it.  And then after it converted to paths, you can shrink it back down?

Powerstroke is intended to provide variable width strokes - to imitate the natural variations of width, like if you were drawing with a marker.  Typically they are used in comics or cartoons, to create the dark border around them.  Like in the attached little cartoon.  (click on to make it larger)  Notice on the candle where the border is wider in some places and thinner in other places?  So using it for blocky type fonts doesn't make sense.  (All this time I've been thinking you must be making a font that's sort of wavy or curvy.) 

Anyway, even though the objects aren't technically strokes anymore, they start out as strokes.  And strokes typically provide the border for cartoon drawings.  Previously, the only way to make a variable width stroke would be to use PAP.  But PAP is very limiting, compared to powerstroke.  So powerstroke is brilliant in providing the variable width.

Yeah, the pink nodes have been disappearing on me too.  Usually if I move a path node, the pink nodes come back into view.  I'm guessing it's a known problem, but I haven't looked it up.

For #5, could you align the nodes before you apply the powerstroke?

6 - I'm not sure what Sort Points does either.  There's a tooltip, if you hover your mouse over it.  But I don't understand the tooltip. (time?)  The best way I can understand Interpolator Type is that it uses different math formulas to shape the curves and widths.

[flamingolady]

Before I further read your response, pls see this S in the attachment.  I made yet another one.  In no instances have I ever chosen the Bspline, though I've also noticed that it does appear at the top of the list somehow, hmmm.  I do know about Bspline going nutty, but that's usually resolved by adding a bunch of nodes to stabilize it, not the same thing here.  I've added, deleted, changed node style, etc., still haven't figured out why.
In the attachment, you'll notice that the S can't be moved, it snaps right back into place.  sometimes you get a 'ghost' where the nodes are outside of the 'body', it's like part of it moves but not the whole thing.  Sometimes moving the nodes helps move it back, but not always.
FYI. I had duplicated my problem S and R from my font file, using Ctrl D, and pasted them into a new file, then selected both together and re-sized, but only the R resized.  The interesting thing is that both were the exact same height and size, but look how small the S is now. 

dee

[flamingolady]

ok, between your comments and using it more, I have the basics down, def some bugs, and really need some direction on what sort points and interpolation means, but happy so far.
I've managed to make a full upper and lower case of a very basic font, and working on numbers, etc.  I tried to do a curly que font a few yrs back with spiro and in lieu of jumping off a cliff, I stopped, so maybe I can address that again. 

5.  Tried align first, but there's too much manipulation, so it gets off course quickly.

6.  I don't understand the tooltip either.

In general, features I'd love to see: 
*A lock for the pink nodes, so they can't chg width size on their own, it's impossible to maintain the width when moving. 
*The ability to select several lines/characters at once and apply a width size, type of cap, type of interpolation, etc, to the entire selection.  Currently have to select EACH and every line/stroke (and sometimes there are 4 lines/strokes per character with 4 - 5 pink nodes in each).  This takes a long time if you are changing an entire alphabet.  Esp would be useful when using one font to create a variation of another. 
*Have different colors or shapes for the pink nodes, or something that indicates which node is the start and which is the end.  Even a green for start, red for end, and pink for all others would be great.
*Have a way to unlink duplicates (I've found it helps to cut and paste the duplicate).
*Be able to align the nodes while in power stroke mode. 
*fix the bugs of the width not being correct (i.e., width shows a 3, but is really the size of a 1.
 
Thanks Brynn.  you've been a great help, as always, and I'm becoming happy with my first real font effort.  Will check out more font builder sites.  Hope by the end of the week, I'll have a font!
dee 

[brynn]

Before I further read your response, pls see this S in the attachment.  I made yet another one.  In no instances have I ever chosen the Bspline, though I've also noticed that it does appear at the top of the list somehow, hmmm.  I do know about Bspline going nutty, but that's usually resolved by adding a bunch of nodes to stabilize it, not the same thing here.  I've added, deleted, changed node style, etc., still haven't figured out why.
In the attachment, you'll notice that the S can't be moved, it snaps right back into place.  sometimes you get a 'ghost' where the nodes are outside of the 'body', it's like part of it moves but not the whole thing.  Sometimes moving the nodes helps move it back, but not always.
FYI. I had duplicated my problem S and R from my font file, using Ctrl D, and pasted them into a new file, then selected both together and re-sized, but only the R resized.  The interesting thing is that both were the exact same height and size, but look how small the S is now. 

How did you create that s?  I see the behavior where it snaps back.  I see that the status bar says it has a powerstroke applied.  But switching to the Node tool, nodes are not displayed, as they should be.  Neither kind of node - path nodes or pink nodes!  So I have no idea how that might have happened.

If I remove the powerstroke, and add it back, I get something entirely different, with nodes showing as expected.  After I adjust the pink nodes, it  resembles what you had before, except bigger.  And I can move it around without snapping back.  But I can't figure out how you created it to begin with.

In no instances have I ever chosen the Bspline

Both the Pencil and the Pen tools have a Bspline mode.  So if the tool was set to that mode, it would automatically have the bspline LPE applied to it.

[brynn]

In general, features I'd love to see:
*A lock for the pink nodes, so they can't chg width size on their own, it's impossible to maintain the width when moving.
*The ability to select several lines/characters at once and apply a width size, type of cap, type of interpolation, etc, to the entire selection.  Currently have to select EACH and every line/stroke (and sometimes there are 4 lines/strokes per character with 4 - 5 pink nodes in each).  This takes a long time if you are changing an entire alphabet.  Esp would be useful when using one font to create a variation of another.
*Have different colors or shapes for the pink nodes, or something that indicates which node is the start and which is the end.  Even a green for start, red for end, and pink for all others would be great.
*Have a way to unlink duplicates (I've found it helps to cut and paste the duplicate).
*Be able to align the nodes while in power stroke mode.
*fix the bugs of the width not being correct (i.e., width shows a 3, but is really the size of a 1.

I think it would help us to answer these odd behaviors you're seeing, if you could write the specific steps you're taking to create these characters.

Duplicates should not be linked, at all.  It should be impossible to have pink nodes on both sides of the powerstroke object.  At least as far as I can tell.  Well, not without the object twisting over itself.  I've seen this snapping back behavior before, but I can't remember what causes it.  Maybe someone else will remember.  But the steps you take might help to reveal all these things.

[brynn]

I just looked at your last attachment again.  The reason I couldn't see the nodes is because I was zoomed selection to page, and the nodes are actually showing a short distance away.

If I drag a pink node, then suddenly the s is showing up where the nodes are, and the s that was snapping back is gone.

I still have no idea how you ended up with that.  And even with the s showing up where the nodes are, it has some odd behavior when you try to move it.  It doesn't snap back to where it was, but it snaps to some random spot on the canvas.

Still would be curious to know how you made it in the first place.

Edit
I think it's the auto-smooth nodes which are causing the snapping back, or snapping to random places.  When I change the nodes to smooth or cusp, that odd behavior stops.

Edit #2
The R on the page, when ungrouped, each of the 3 parts are showing a bspline and powerstroke lpe both.  Maybe it's the combination of auto smooth nodes on a bspline lpe object, that's creating the odd behaviors?  Although I still haven't reproduced the linked duplicates.

[brynn]

Nope, the weird snapping behavior is back again, so it wasn't the auto smooth nodes.

[flamingolady]

Welcome to my world of wonkiness, lol. 
I used the pen tool and applied the power stroke, maybe it was in the B spline mode and I didn't realize it.  So, I went back and removed path effects on a couple that had b splines, then chose just the power tool and that seems so far to remove some issues, yay; so I think you may have hit the nail on the head about b spline being a cause.  Didn't know B spline could be applied automatically.  I don't think the jumping is due to the zoom or the type of stroke nodes, but who knows. You also have to have a clearly defined beg, middle and end, there's no way to draw a O in one line, it can't figure out where to start or end....

I also went back and removed the path effect on the wonky S (the one in the attachment).  It appears twisted, but that's just the normal fill crossing itself.  If you remove the fill, and give the stroke a color, THEN apply the power stroke, it works perfectly.  So what I learned is that you have to go in a specific order to create the power stroke or things don't work correctly.  Lesson learned.  Give it a try.  I did finally get an S that works.  whew, that was a hard character to create. 

Sometimes the nodes move but not the 'body', as you were talking about.  If you 'select all objects on all layers', you can usually find where it went, it can jump a long way away too.  Then highlight just a node(s) and move it a pixel or two, then back, and it usually jumps back into it's 'body'.
I also fumbled with the align nodes more, and got it somewhat to work, enough to help a bit anyway.

I did get nodes on both sides, they had neg numbers, but they may have shown up on their own, can't remember, and I deleted them.  If I get another one, I'll save it to show.  Somewhere I saw a tooltip that said you could use neg numbers, but they don't play well with pos numbers.

Another reason for needing a way to know the start, middle, and end nodes are because you can move a start/end node beyond a middle node and it starts twisting and dividing your stroke/line.  Maybe a number inside the pink node would resolve that issue. 

dee