Inkscape and Prosthetics

[Melodicpinpon]

Hello dear Inkscape drawers!

I am new in this community and want to use Inkscape in order to use patterns and drawings to create 3D-printed prosthetic sockets through Blender.
(I spent so much time learning Blender, now that I feel confident about it, I would like to be able to create all kinds of patterns by myself, in order to integrate them into the prosthetic's socket design.
As I prepare a final work within my studies of prosthetics about 3D printing, I learned that I could use .svg files to create an extruded 3D drawing.
Therefore, and because this project involves many other aspects, I would like to know if there were places on the web where I could find free .svg abstract patterns and drawings that I could use to create my shapes.

If anyone feels like sending .svg files to receive a 3D file, fitted to a patient's limb, in return, please contact me.
Thank you for your help,

Gauthier

[brynn]

Welcome to our forum!

Oh my, that is fascinating indeed!  And a couple of our members have some good experience with Blender, in case you have questions.  Although you did say you have already learned Blender.

Yes, there probably are some places on the web where you can find free abstract SVG patterns.  And Inkscape can surely create abstract patterns as well, through a few....or even several techniques.  But I'm having a hard time making the leap in my mind, from entirely abstract pattern, to "prosthetic socket".  Because wouldn't the prosthetic need to match the patient's unique body?  I guess prosthetics in general would not necessarily fit a convex shape, but maybe sometimes concave.  But anyway, still, would need to fit their unique body.

Your attachment makes me wonder if the abstract pattern might be needed to form a kind of structure, or maybe matrix-like filling, for parts of the prosthetic.....except that I think that sort of interwoven appearance in your attachment is just how Blender has extruded the shape.

Once I understand what kind of abstract patterns you need, I could suggest some places to look for patterns, help you learn how to create abstract patterns with Inkscape, and maybe even send some SVG files with patterns.  I would not need a 3D file in return.  But maybe you could provide the 3d file for someone who needs a prosthetic, but who can't help you with Inkscape? 

(I can't speak for everyone here, but we're here because we like to help people learn Inkscape, and spread the word about how awesome Inkscape is.  So it's not much of a stretch to helping people get a new prosthetic, especially if it's as simple as drawing a pattern.  I've heard  how fantastic these  3D printers can be, for making prosthetics, and especially for children who need new ones as they grow.  I doubt any of us would hesitate to help, if we can, from here.)

In addition to what kind of patterns you need, are there any specific requirements?  Like for example, does the pattern need to be a single path?  Or could it be a compound path (multiple paths that aren't attached to each other, necessarily) or overlapping paths? Or just multiple paths with different styles (stroke width, color, etc.)  Could it be made of vector shapes (circle, rectangle, spiral, etc.)?  Could it be made of clones?  Or maybe, must it be any of those things? 

Oh!  Is the abstract pattern for some kind of textured surface of the finished prosthetic?  That could be fun, making texture patterns for kids' prosthetics (if that's what it's for)!

[Melodicpinpon]

Hello Brynn,

wouldn't the prosthetic need to match the patient's unique body?

-Yes, that is why I start from a scaned amputed limb, that I work within Blender. I created a tutorial (in french) that I can share, in case somebody is interested.

that sort of interwoven appearance in your attachment is just how Blender has extruded the shape

-It is indeed just a result of an extrusion of the edges of a low-poly mesh. I was searching for a way to create some kind of organic holes, such as the Cortex orthosis have(from Jake Evil) I did not find the way to do it yet, even through 3DS Max, that should do it. But I could do it if I had just a .svg sketch of the shapes I want to create.

are there any specific requirements?

-In any case, the part has to be connected, to make a signle part. In the picture above, I cut the orthosis in two parts in order to be able to enter the limb. If we want to use a FDM 3D-printer, which is cheaper, the pattern must be made in such a way that there is no 'overhang' (it is probably more secure to avoid open-ended lines at first, or only going up from the base, and without too much angle). If we use a powder 3D-printer, which creates stronger parts, there won't be any other design limitation.

 Is the abstract pattern for some kind of textured surface of the finished prosthetic?

-Yes, the pattern would be what appears from the printer, but the idea is to extrude it, curve it and make it fit to the mesh of the scan. I already learned how to do that. Here's why some beautifull designs would give the use of 3D printers its whole meaning.

-If anybody is interested to help sending files, and want to learn more about the technique and the whole project, (s)he can send me an email at kervyngauthierATgmailDOTcom and I can provide all the needed information, with pleasure.

I'm glad to receive your answer, and hope to make beautifull things together.

Gauthier

[Lazur]

Hello Gauthier!

A voronoi pattern may be a good start.
http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/Release_notes/0.91#New
Probably something similar could be generated by blender too? If displaced-bumpmapped textures could be turned to meshes...

I don't know how can blender project an svg straight on a mesh, other than using a mesh deform modifier.


If you can put your hands on rhinoceros, with the grasshopper you can generate great designs.
http://www.grasshopper3d.com/

[brynn]

I did a minor edit of your last reply, and at least partially disguised your email address.  It will reduce the spam you'll get from posting it publicly.  Or if you like, you could edit your message, and offer to share your email address via Private Message.  That will completely prevent you from getting spam (at least from being posted in this forum).  Although perhaps that's less convenient, if someone doesn't want to register, to get access to the Private Messages.  Well, it's up to you, as you like 

Is the abstract pattern for some kind of textured surface of the finished prosthetic?

-Yes, the pattern would be what appears from the printer, but the idea is to extrude it, curve it and make it fit to the mesh of the scan. I already learned how to do that. Here's why some beautifull designs would give the use of 3D printers its whole meaning.

I think I understand what you mean.  So for example, a little boy might like a Spiderman pattern, or a little girl might like a princess pattern.  Something like that?  Or of course, adults may like something very abstract....maybe like a fractal pattern, or foliage, or floral, or paisley?  Like that?  I guess they can choose what color the prosthetic is printed with.  Is there any possibility for more than 1 color?

Certainly, I think it would be fun to make some patterns.  I don't necessarily need details about the workings of Blender, and I can't read French anyway.  But we would need some details about how the pattern is made.

It sounds like, for one kind of printer, you need the pattern to precisely fit the outline of the prosthetic pieces.  In that case, wouldn't we need the outline shape? 

But for a different kind of printer, it sounds like maybe you could use a tiled pattern.

 :idea:  If you're setting up a business or organization, perhaps you could even offer to make custom textures/patterns?!

Can you show us some examples of what some of the prosthetics look like?  Mostly for inspiration, but it sounds like for one kind of printer, the artist might need to have the precise shape of the prosthetic?

Could you show us an example of a file with a pattern that meets all your needs?

Here are a couple of places where you could look for nice, free, svg or vector patterns:

• Open Clipart - recently OCL has become more of a social media type of site, but started out as "Open Clipart Library" and still contains a lot of good vector work.  But you'll have to search it out.  Everything has a Public Domain license and is free.  Most (if not all) of them are available in SVG format.  Even though the site says "clipart" you can find all kinds of artwork there.
• http://www.cgtextures.com/ - As far as I can tell, these are all raster textures.  But some of them could either be converted to vector (using Inkscape) or for inspiration for someone to draw it new in SVG.  Be sure to read their FAQ about licensing, copyright, etc.  They're free, but not for all types of uses. 
• http://www.vectorportal.com/ - I don't know much about this site.  Be sure to read their license and tou, to make sure about copyrights, etc.  It looks like they're all vector, but I see a lot are AI or IPS.  These could be converted to SVG, using Inkscape, as far as I know.
• http://www.vecteezy.com/ - same here - I don't know much about them, so be sure to check licenses, scan for malware if  you download any, check for license, copyright, etc.
• http://www.assistcg.com/ - same here

And that's all I have for potntially ready made stuff.  Maybe I'll start with a paisley design, probably sometime next week, an manybe we can iron out some requirements  for tje   FO:

[Melodicpinpon]

Hello,
Well, here's the story: as a 3rd year student of orthopedy, I was meant to choose a subject for my final work and chose to study 3D printing; then I met Nicolas Huchet who made the Bionico Hand DIY project(myo-electric prosthetic adaptation of a robotic hand). As I was with a friend who happens to be amputed from the right arm and leg(above elbow and knee).
So we decided to add a wrist and an elbow to this design. 6 monthes and much mails later, there is a bunch of interested people(but not all so keen, lol) We have scans of the amputed limbs, know how to fit a svg, extrude it, and shrinkwrap it on the scan,  I made internships in prosthesists workplaces, have references of motors, some electonician friends recreate the EMG sensors etc. All this is probably just for fun, but the use of 3D printers for orthopedical devices will rise for sure; it will probably concern first aesthetics for tibial prosthesis(shape of the leg around the rod), immobilisation orthosis for bone injury/paralysis/paretesis; corsets(with a big printer), and maybe the last one will be sockets for prosthetics(first arms and then legs, because of higher constraints). I can't post images in the answer, but feel free to visit the forum if you feel like,(http://forum.caliban-web.com/projets/prothese-de-bras-myo-electrique-t4202-75.html?sid=f61184c876c0252f2c46d220e7bc094a) the files are on a google drive account. Sorry for writing much. Rhino requires money, but I guess it could help later on to get crazy shapes.Here's for the extrusion of .svg:
There is no need to have the size or the limits because the right way to do it is to add the limit after(I think), and I can scale it easily if it is big enough(many patterns). It does not go through a texture. The printing of several colors/materials is still a bit tuff(I still look to buy one), but yes it is possible(2max for FDM, a whole painting for powders-look a bit washed-)As for the business, yes, maybe some people would like something personal.Thank you for your interest.

[brynn]

Yikes, looks like I fell asleep at the end of my last message!    Don't worry, writing too much is not a problem  here 

I think plenty of people would be glad to help with supplying patterns.  But so far, you haven't given us enough information about the patterns you need.  There are too many possibilities to leave it as "abstract pattern".  Even if I, or anyone, sent you some files with patterns, we have no way of knowing whether they will be useful or not.  Because a "pattern" in Inkscape can mean a few different things.

So just know that I'll be glad to help, and I think others may be interested as well.  But we can't do anything, until we have more information.  Here's what we need to know:

 -- Will this be pattern be printed on the prosthetic, so that the surface is smooth?  Or sort of etched into it, like a texture?
 -- Do you need a photographic type of pattern?  Any photo can be made into a pattern with Inkscape (although it would be raster content within the SVG file).  Or do you need vector only - paths?  (For Blender, I think it must be paths, but I'm not sure.)  Most of the textures at the CG Textures site, are photos, but in the Various category are some designs that could easily be converted to vector.  Or of course we can draw unique patterns or designs for you.
 -- What size should the pattern units be, for repeating patterns?  And for non-repeating patterns, it still helps to have a general idea for the abstract designs.
 -- What are the outer dimensions of the whole "sheet"?

Even though, as you said, you can scale it to fit, I'm not sure if that's an appropriate approach....at least as far as I understand this.  Let's say we sent you a file with an A4 size document, let's say with pattern units approx 1 inch², tiled to fill that A4 doc.  If you're working on a leg prosthesis, by the time you scale it large enough, the pattern units may be too big to identify or recognize.  Or if you're working on a hand, and reduce the A4 document, the pattern may be too small to recognize.

With Inkscape, we could quite easily make you a "sheet" of 1 inch pattern units the size of a house!  So that part is not a problem.  We just need to know how large or small to make it, as well as the size of the pattern units.  And in the case of entirely abstract patterns (not tiled or repeating) it would still be helpful to know the general unit size, as a guide to know what size the abstract designs need to be.

Or, are you asking for a single pattern unit, and you plan to tile it yourself?

I visited your forum, but as I said before, I can't read French.  If there are any images showing the kind of patterns you need, can you post a link or links directly to the images?  I looked at the YT video you provided a link to, but I'm not sure how that can help us with knowing about the designs or patterns you need.

So anyway, let us know when you're ready, and can give us the info we need.  Some of us could produce a file (or a few files) within a few hours to a day or 2, or others might need a week or 2, depending on the complexity of the pattern, and how much free time they have.

[Melodicpinpon]

Thank you, it sounds good:) As you ask, here is what would help:

The pattern sent would not be printed on a flat surface, it would become the only existing surface: black=materia/white=hole

-Black draw, on a white sheet
-closed lines
-covering the whole sheet
-A4
-pattern already repeated and grouped.
-many crossings

I learned how to control a variation of the thickness of the extrusion, sothat I have some control on the resistance, and I might deform the draw(or the 3Dmesh of the draw) to get higher densities in some places that would support higher constraints; but the original density is the central question; Tests must still be made in order to start and define mathematical rules for the design; here is why we would need several designs, also with higher densities on some places(like a horizontal higher density region on one of the two lines that divide a sheet in three equal horizontal parts, for exemple: ) The purpose of it is to have a stronger wrist region for a wrist immobilisation orthosis, for exemple.

I still have to check the way to include colors to a 3D mesh for this kind of powder printing (it becomes .mtl file, linked to an .stl and the .obj allready have it included I think, but I don't think that colours pass through the conversion.)

We can think of doing ...everything in fact(with high-tech machines).
But to start, that seems the right way to do it.

[brynn]

Ok, I think that's clear enough.  I can't speak for everyone, but if we have to have some back and forth discussions about individual files, I'm glad to do that.  And maybe I can get some files ready pretty soon.  Simple tiled ones (repeated patterns) would not take very long, because we have a tiled clone mechanisim in Inkscape.  Once you have all the variables set properly, the tiling happens in 1 click!  Completely random designs would take a bit longer.

Oh, actually I do have a couple more questions.  For the many crossovers.  Does it need to be a single path, that crosses over itself many, many times?  Or can there be any number of paths?  I've never used Blender, so I'm not sure about that.  Also, does the path width matter?

And for the 3d printing, are there just 2 depths - the top, and the bottom.....how can I say that better? ....I need to make a screenshot.  I'll be right back 

Edit
Nevermind.  For a minute I was thinking how to depict in 3d, but I guess Blender will do that part.  You just need the paths.

[brynn]

   spirograms!!   

[Melodicpinpon]

The width of the line matters: it will have an influence on the weight, the resistance, the prize ... and the aesthetic.
For now, I can only state the observation that with the powder printing, it seems that it is strong enough to support the constraints, even with so many holes in it.
We still have to make tests and to confirm the possibility to make some strong enough with the Fused Deposition Modeling(FDM) technique.
I like the oriental abstract geometrical art, and I love to draw mandalas,if somebody feel like collaborate about that, I might send hand-drawn mandalas and ask if it is possible to get a plain .svg clean version of it.

This one is assymetric, I make symetrical ones too. What matters will be to cover the whole sheet.

[brynn]

I enjoy drawing mandalas as well.  Or maybe "circular drawings" would better describe it.  You can see my "round things" album, in our gallery http://inkscapecommunity.com/ic_gallery/thumbnails.php?album=15.  And yes, I can probably vectorize a raster drawing by hand, if that's what you mean.

Although I did have the impression that mandalas were usually round.  That's a nice drawing, but not round at all.  Maybe there's another definition of "mandala" that I'm not familiar with.

As far as your comment about the line width mattering, do you mean that all the lines need to have the same width?  Or do you want lines with variable widths?

[brynn]

Ok, so this is just a first try.  Not a true paisly design, but basic units are 2 overlapping paisly units.  There are quite a few variations of this I plan on making, if it's anywhere near what you want.  I would guess there aren't enough "crossovers", so one of the variations will be to just make smaller units, or a denser pattern.  Another variation would be to make the individual units fancier, with little borders or more intricate design

One thing I'm not clear on though.  Do you need the edges connected?  The pattern units overlap the edges of the page quite a lot, so I just clipped it to the page size for now.  But if there needs to be a path around the page (to add more crossover/connections, that's easy enough to do.

Also, just a PNG example, until I understand more what you want.

[Melodicpinpon]

Thank you, good job!
This coud serve to print in titanium.
For other materials there must be thicker lines, more black.
Thin lines will result very fragile, try and think more about making white holes inside a black plain material and less on joining lines in the emptyness.
Well something equilibrated between these two concepts would be perfect : )

You are right about mandalas, I kept the term when I began to make asymetric ones, and then this kind of messy ones in opposition to the regular figurative cartoon drawing : D If you give me an email adress, I can send you more(real ones) When you say rasterise, it means convert from pixels to vectors?
I ll love to see if it is achievable through Inkscape, this summer, probably.

[brynn]

When I say "vectorise" I mean taking a raster image, like the drawings you attached, and making it vector (SVG).  It is definitely achievable with Inkscape.  Depending on the precision you need, maybe it could even be an automated process (Path menu > Trace Bitmap)  http://tavmjong.free.fr/INKSCAPE/MANUAL/html/Trace.html.  Otherwise, someone with my experience could trace it "manually" using inkscape tools in a couple of hours.  Or maybe several hours, if you have never used inkscape.

In a couple of clicks, I can make those lines thicker.....  Although that particular design, with simply wider strokes, it loses whatever charm it might have had.

But now that I know that, I have a better idea what to do.  If I hit on something you like, let me know and I can send the SVG file.  You said Plain SVG, right?

[Melodicpinpon]

Ok, we are approaching, the thickness is right,  we just need more and smaller patterns.
The design should be small enough to limitate the over pressure on certain parts of the skin.

I definitely have to learned to copy my mandalas through Inkscape...Did you ever do some? Do you have advices for repeating the patterns(I kept the page explaining the centric reproduction sent by Lazur)

If you send me a plain.svg of your drawings(it must be plain svg), I can make the manipulation in 3D and show you the result.

[attachment[/attachment]

[brynn]

Ok, I don't know if anyone else noticed, but this topic went missing for a little while today.  The culprit was Gauthier's last attachment, and I had to delete it, to get the topic showing again.  While I don't have any limits on attachments for the forum, apparently our host has some limits.  I think it's around 3000 pixels, when the problems start, just for future reference.  I'm not sure if that can be increased or not, but I'll ask.  And meanwhile, Gauthier, could you give us a smaller version of that JPG?

Ok, we are approaching, the thickness is right,  we just need more and smaller patterns.
The design should be small enough to limitate the over pressure on certain parts of the skin.

I'm still working on patterns.  I guess I tend to work a little more slowly than most Inkscape users.  What do you mean about "limitate the over pressure"?  I guess that's probably a typo, but I can't figure out if it should be "imitate" or something about "limits".  In either case, I'm not sure about "over pressure".  Will this pattern be in contact with the skin?  I always thought the part of a prosthesis that connects to the patients body had to be smooth, and fairly soft.

I definitely have to learned to copy my mandalas through Inkscape...Did you ever do some? Do you have advices for repeating the patterns(I kept the page explaining the centric reproduction sent by Lazur)

Well, I've just noticed that I enjoy drawing round symmetrical things.  I'm not sure why     I'm not really familiar with what traditional mandalas are supposed to be.  Whatever I have in my "round things" album are what I think are the best.  But there might be 1 or 2 that I haven't uploaded yet.

What kind of advice about repeating patterns do you need?  That's such an open ended question, it could take a long time to answer.  But if you have questions that are a little more specific, it would help.  I'm not sure what page from Lazur you're talking about.

Maybe I can get one file ready to attach tonight.  But I still have a lot of ideas to work on.  Now that I understand better about what you need, I have to sort of re-think the other ideas I had.  Anyway, still working 

[brynn]

Ok, this design came from the other one, just duplicated, flipped, realigned, and black fill added.  PNG attached so you don't have to download the SVG if it's not right yet.

You'll see that the design is actually bigger than the A4 doc size, and that I used Clipping to make it the right size.  However, if the design needs to stop at the page border, without using clipping, I'll have to do some more work on it.  Just let me know.

And I'm still working on some better designs 

[brynn]

Ok, this just a PNG, for now.  I'm thinking if the design was maybe 50% smaller, would work better?  Or other comments, how to improve?

Edit
2nd attachment - same thing except with the fill rule changed.  I still think better much reduced scale. 

[brynn]

And here's another variation on the same theme.  Just showing PNG for now, until I find out if you need the edges "finished" or if clipping is ok.  As you can see, the page size will need to be adjusted, if you wanted to tile this whole A4 doc.  But that can be done, if necessary.

I guess it kind of reminds me of the pattern you see on....Idk, something like steel plating, or something like that.  For some reason, I think of seeing it on big trucks or fire engines, but not sure why I think that.

Anyway, I could probably get more out of that 1 pattern, but I'm ready to move on, for now 

[Melodicpinpon]

Ok, I try and finish my processing of the scan for the upper amputed limb(above elbow) and then I'll ask you if you want to send me some of these-lines with a variable thickness wil result having the strongness of the thiner part-

I wish I had a more powerfull computer, as this one crashes when working on heavy scans...
That will do for the first trials though.

I appreiate your work and hope to be able to try it on  the 3D scan soon(maybe tonight),-would be faster through a regular plain .svg-but as I would have to duplicate it and merge sevral together, I might aswell start from your png : )

g.

[brynn]

No, the SVG file I attached IS a Plain SVG file!

[Melodicpinpon]

Maybe that the site does not support .svg files because here it says they are .png. But do not worry, it is easy to convert.
I finally achieved to do what I needed for the scan file(I know it lools pretty simple, but I had to find out how to cut the edges, fill a big  nasty hole and smooth the mesh). There will only be one or two more details before the final version, but I can already try to set your pattern. I'll show you afteward.

[Melodicpinpon]

Nnearly ok, Do you recognise your design.
I'm working on these imperfections on the side.
It will do soon : )

Sorry to ask so much, but if you can repeat more smaller patterns that should help, and you were right, I'll have to cut some parts but it will be easier to make it afterwe-ards in the 3D(to see were to cut)

[brynn]

No, the Plain SVG file is there.  Maybe you didn't notice it because SVG files do not show a thumbnail.  Look, it's just above the PNG image, in my reply, msg #17.

The name of the file is "pai1-4p.svg" and it's preceded by a tiny paper clip icon.  I put the PNG image there for convenience, in case some people didn't want to download the SVG.  But the SVG file is there.