Inkscape and Prosthetics

[Melodicpinpon]

I got it-This one is a bit charged(will cost more materia-, if you feel like sending whiter ones, you're welcome-
I shoud be able to send you scans of a book about the muslims mathematical designs(with the steps of constructions) around the beginning of May.
Do you think it can help with Inkscape?
Are you interested? I wish I had more time to draw beautifull curvy smoothy mandalas, but I have plenty works to give to the school, and I still have one or two things to clarify with Blender...

[brynn]

If the designs have a public domain license, I would be glad to manually trace or auto-trace some.  But being in a book, it's likely they are copyrighted.

Or with a book that gives the steps for drawing a certain kind of design....  Wow!  ....I'm not sure....  I'll be glad to read it, for sure.  But there's no guarantee I will be able to catch on.  I only think of myself as marginally artistic.  Mostly I enjoy the creative process, and sometimes my drawings turn out looking nice.  So I can agree to try it.  But whether I can actually draw things like that, I can't promise will happen.  I'd say if there are steps to follow, is in my favor.  And if the math is fairly simple, or can be done on the Windows calculator, I should be able to handle it.  I do enjoy math, so that's in my favor too.  And I do know Inkscape pretty well.  But we won't know whether I can put it all together, until I try it.

Actually, Lazur's good with "mathematical art".  He made these fractal designs using the Fibonacci spiral:  https://inkscape.org/en/~Lazur.  Or if you can share the info on the forum (rather then email) anyone might like to give it a try 

But meanwhile, I'll work on some designs that are more balanced with positive/negative space.  As I said, I work pretty slowly with Inkscape.  Maybe I could take one of your JPGs and work up a pattern from parts of them?

[Melodicpinpon]

Just one last thing, in order to try ad create a design that goes around the whole object without linkage, it would be helpfull if it is possible to get the .svg file already made sothat the left and right borders(as the upper and lower) can fold on each other without having to squeeze the sheet. It might be interesting to have a tiny bit more than the exact junction, in order to get a solid linkage, but what matters is that the lines can cover themselves, at the same lattitude or longitude. I guess that some parameters in the program might influence this question.

[brynn]

....it would be helpfull if it is possible to get the .svg file already made sothat the left and right borders(as the upper and lower) can fold on each other without having to squeeze the sheet. It might be interesting to have a tiny bit more than the exact junction, in order to get a solid linkage, but what matters is that the lines can cover themselves, at the same lattitude or longitude.

Aahh, more of the info I was trying to get in the beginning.  But I'm not completely clear what you're saying.  "....can fold on each other without having to squeeze the sheet."??  I can't quite sort that out.  Are you saying you essentially want the A4 size image to be tile-able?  So that when you line them up, side to side and top to bottom that you can't see where one sheet ends the the next begins?

[Melodicpinpon]

I might try another technique in order to avoid the linkage problem-see bottom hole-I ll try it and tell you if it has consequences on the pattern design, but fot he technique that we are speaking of, it is exactly as if you print the draw on a sheet and that you wrap it, in some cases, you will be able to connect the lines easily, while the sheet stands on a desk, with a thin coverment of one side by the other, in other cases, you will have to wrap it more to get the same , well, in any case it works sothat it should not matter much if there are enough patterns

[brynn]

I'm sorry, I still don't understand "wrap" or "linkage".  I think it might be possible to do what you want.  But I still don't understand what you're asking.  So maybe not possible.

[Melodicpinpon]

Do not worry about that, try and wrap a sheet of paper around your arm, sothat both sides of a drawing would connect to each other. I do the same with the 3D.

[brynn]

Oooh, now I understand!  That's essentially the same thing as I was saying, although not exactly. 

I'm thinking if it tapers at the bottom, like in your last attachment, that will make it much more difficult, for the edges to match.  Certainly, one side would not necessarily match to the same pattern unit on the other side.  You'd have to do some custom work in those areas.  (Or whoever is doing the drawing)  You couldn't place the drawing just anywhere, as I'm thinking.  The pattern or drawing would have to fit to the precise area on the prosthesis as it's designed for.

And certainly that could be done!  I think the best way to do that, would be if you could provide a flat, 2d shape.  As if you were "unrolling" the pattern from around the "arm" shape.  Because I might not be talented enough to be able to make the linkage by estimating (either in my mind or on the canvas) where the edges need to fit each other.  If I could have a flat shape, that would be much better.  I don't suppose Blender could do that?  Or do you actually start with a flat shape, so that it already exists?

Honestly, I don't see any problem with this, as long as we can acquire the exact, and actually, for the best result, the precise shape that the pattern needs to fit on.  That way, the design could be made to fit perfectly.  And now, with this new requirement, we realize that non-repeating patterns (or at least non-symmetric patterns), or completely abstract patterns would work better.  But still could be done with a repeating pattern, except it will be distorted in the areas where the edges meet.

(However, for the "big picture" as they say, this will make the process of designing prosthesis in this way, much more customized, and much less automatic.)

Actually, in thinking about this flat shape, it reminds of making clothing, which I learned to do at a very young age.  You start a big length of fabric, and several paper pattern pieces.  The paper pieces are used as a template to cut out the fabric pieces, and then sew the fabric pieces together.  So I know a lot about what this flat shape is going to look like.....although I think we will still need the precise shape that fits this person and this prosthesis, and only this one.  Here, it should look something like the attached quick sketch.  Right?

[Melodicpinpon]

This is the technique I use for the moment, I ll try to find out wether there is a better and easier way to do it.
Pulling the whole drawing from bottom to top could do, I'll try, and ask on the blender forum too, because applying a texture doesn't allow to go to a 3D with it.

It is funny that what I do in 3D and what you suggest is the technique that is materially used to create orthosis coverment with leather, or foams.
The questions remains exactly the same. Here's why I might give you several shapes like the one you draw for several specific parts(ankle-foot-orthosis and so on)

[brynn]

Ooohh, it looks like Blender makes the pattern or the drawing at different "scales" depending on what it's covering.  What I mean is that at the lower part, where the arm is narrower, and appears almost to go to a....well, a rounded point, the pattern has a smaller scale.  (edit - or maybe that's a leg?) The lines are thinner, and the units are smaller and closer together.  Where up at the shoulder, where it has more volume, the pattern seems to be a larger scale (lines a little wider, units larger, etc.

I had not expected that would happen!  In my mind, I was thinking the pattern is laid on the surface and looks the same, no matter what shape or volume it's covering.  So if the scale of the drawing will be variable, depending on.....I'll call it the volume, since I don't know the proper words.  If the volume is larger, the drawing scale is larger, and if the volume is smaller, the scale of the drawing is smaller.

What that means, is that it will be easier to make the lines meet at the edges!  It still will need custom tweaking, but not as much.  That won't necessarily be true for all body parts.  But in the upper arm, that will make it easier.

One thing I'm still not clear about.  When it's finished, will the surface be smooth?  I guess that's what you mean when you say it's not possible to make the texture 3d?  However, I'm not sure that's true.  It seems to me like I've seen renderings from Blender with textured surfaces....maybe I'll search around and try to find examples.....

Ok then, I'll keep on working on some better drawings.  I might have some tesselations that I made a long time ago.  And I still want to try some patterns with spirograms.  They won't be able to be very intricate, as spirograms can be.  But some simpler ones should tile easily.  And I'll wait to hear from you about those other designs 

[brynn]

Blender images with 3d texture.  There are lots, these just 3.

http://archive.blender.org/index.php@eID=tx_cms_showpic&file=uploads%252Fpics%252Fdea.jpg&width=800m&height=600m&bodyTag=%253Cbody%20style=%2522margin%253A0%3B%20background%253A%23fff%3B%2522%253E&wrap=%253Ca%20href=%2522javascript%253Aclose%28%29%3B%2522%253E%20%257C%20%253C%252Fa%253E&md5=3e43e8950be537f7cc5d5e48e5bf2610.html

http://www.blendernation.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/gravity-02_signed-351x185.jpg

http://www.blendernation.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/coffee-728x336.jpg

[brynn]

Question:  Do the pages have to be A4 size exactly, for some reason?  If I wanted to stretch or shrink the page size, so that it contains only whole pattern units, would that be ok?  It would usually be anything up to 100 px, larger or smaller, in either direction.  Otherwise we have to make our pattern units the same proportion as the a4 page, if we want the edges to match up.  For example the pattern unit would have to be 74.41 x 105.23 px, or 37.20 x 52.61 px, etc.  (I can't remember the mathematical term for what I'm trying to say....it's something like multiples, but not exactly....well maybe that's right....??)

[Melodicpinpon]

No problem with the size of the sheet. only a bit more confortable for me if the number of patterns is enough(I'd rather substract than add)
I got other techniques for the sticking of the draw on the meh, I'll try it this afternoon; and they explained me why there were still defaults.
If it is Ok, I should be able to print afterwards, but will ask for a advice from the prosthesist I'm working with, for the anatomical questions(push here, pull there)

See you : )

[brynn]

Here's something a little different, still using the single "paisley" unit.  This large PNG (I hope not too large  ) shows the basic pattern and how it looks with 3 different wider stroke widths.  The large red rectangle shows the A4 page size.  All I've done is simply change the stroke width on these (relative to the basic pattern at 1 px stroke width).  Let me know and I can provide the Plain SVG file for whichever one you want 

However, there are several other ways to achieve designs in which the positive space and negative space are balanced, besides varying the stroke width.  Next I'll try some other ideas for that aspect.  Well, actually I want to try offsetting the columns, and after I post that, I'll try the different ways to achieve positive/negative balance. 

[brynn]

Here's the other pattern.  I like it better.

After this, I'll try something else besides wider strokes.

[brynn]

Ok, well I didn't like how it turned out, when I used a different technique.  I may come up with some other ideas later.  But for that pattern, I think stroke width is the best way to go.

So here's a whole new kind of pattern.  Let me know if you'd like a Plain SVG file and I'll get one ready.  The A4 page is shown with the red rectangle.  But this pattern is square, and that border is shown with the blue square line.

[Melodicpinpon]

Thank you, it is nice.
plain .svg are welcome of course.
I started to use a bit the program but spent the day installing and learning Mudbox. which might be used aswell.
I'll try and find a moment to recreate such kind of drawings in vectors. It would be better for orthetics divided in two parts, in order to avoid the line that should join the two sides which does not correspond.

[brynn]

Ok, here are a couple of Plain SVG files.

In pai2-1p.svg are 3 layers.  In layer 1 and 2 are the patterns for which I posted PNGs.  In layer 3 isn't really anything.  Just where I'm still experimenting.  So there are 2 patterns in that 1 file.  If you need them in separate files, can you do that yourself?

In ptn1-1p.svg is just 1 layer and 1 pattern.  I'll probably work on it some more, but I'll make a separate Plain SVG file for that, if anything comes out of it.

The edges aren't finished in these, in any way.  And it's still not clear to me whether clipping is sufficient, or whether you need the edges finished in some way (such as you need the paths to match, not just the edge of the clipping path).  In any case, if clipping is sufficient, you can use that red rectangle as the clipping path, to achieve the a4 size document -- EXCEPT

As we discussed needing the edges to meet, in ptn1-1p.svg, if you clip the pattern with the blue square, the edges will meet!

In pai2-1p.svg, in layer 1, on the pattern version indicated to have a 12 px wide stroke, I fixed the red rectangle so that if you use it to clip that pattern, the pattern will repeat (edges will meet)....although it won't be the a4 size anymore.  (Also note that it no longer has any stroke - that's just how I presented the PNGs.)  Also note that when I was aligning the red rectangle properly for this, I noticed some small distortions in certain places of the pattern.  I know how to fix that -- ideally, I would start back over from scratch.  If you were to decide to use this in the final design, it would be no problem for me, to do that.  But if this is just for practice, it should suffice, as is.

For the design in layer 2, the version indicated as 15 px stroke width, I fixed the red rectangle on that one, so that if you use it for the clipping path, the design will repeat/edges meet.

Also, for for the future, it's going to be too much work for me to make a finished plain SVG file with a clipping path set up to allow for repeating patterns, for every single example I've been thinking of making.  I need to you to look at the designs and decide whether you want a plain SVG file for it.  Then I will be glad to make a nice finished file, for just a few designs, in the end.

And for these, I did them very quickly, and they aren't in any way ready for any "final run".  But if you do want any of these for the final version, let me know, and I can get them ready.  Meanwhile, these should give you something to practice with.

[Melodicpinpon]

I don't know why but i got a strange result into Blender with the first I used, after repeating the whole image stick it four times and convert it, half of the draw had inverted the black and withe, and the junction between the black on withe and white on black was a curve that did not seem to correspond to anything within the manipulations...

[Melodicpinpon]

It would be easier with more patterns

[Melodicpinpon]

I like your design very much and will try another technique today to avoid some problems of shrinking large triangles that can not be deformed and applied.
But I noticed that this design had a tiny hole repeated in each pattern, which may result in a problem for the printing.
I think that closing the edges of the lines might resolve the problem of the program inverting the black and white. I don't know how to do it, but it sems like Blender understands the limits but not where there should be black and where white.

If you feel like telling me a few tips about  how to create such repeated patterns by myself, I could try and work on it.

Thank you for your kind help,

Gauthier(Belgium)

[brynn]

Hi Gauthier,
Sorry for the delay.  I'm usually pretty scarce on Thursdays.

I don't know why but i got a strange result into Blender with the first I used, after repeating the whole image stick it four times and convert it, half of the draw had inverted the black and withe, and the junction between the black on withe and white on black was a curve that did not seem to correspond to anything within the manipulations...

I recognize parts of an earlier pattern I made, in your last attachment.  But a lot of those orange lines just look random.

If you manipulated the nodes at all, without being familiar with vector paths, it could easily cause the problem with the positive swapping places with the negative.  And that extra curve piece too, depending on what you did.  What do you mean by "stick it 4 times"?  Do you mean you are tiling the whole page 4 times?  Are you doing any node editing, to connect them?  I could just make the design that large, in the first place.  Also, what are you converting it to?

I have discovered a problem with my basic "paislely" unit, which could probably cause that extra curve shape.  I can't be sure unless you can point to where it lies, on the design, in the SVG file.  I fixed one or 2 places in one of the last SVG files I made for you, but it probably occurs in every single iteration, to varying degrees.

In these designs, I've been focusing on just producing different patterns that are balanced positive to negative -- just making different designs.  I haven't paid much attention to making a correct or well-finished, or....I guess you could say conservative design.  There are extra nodes all over the place, double or triple nodes stacked up, and in one place, this issue that could be causing that extra curve piece you mentioned.  But when (or if) we hit on a design that you want to use in the 3d printer, then I'll probably recreate it from scratch, so I can minimize these anomalies.

If it would be helpful, I could create a correctly finished file, for you to practice with.  I had not thought about it before, because I'm not familiar with Blender.  But I suppose Blender could theoretically be confused with these extra nodes, etc.  To some degree, they cannot be avoided, because of how Inkscape behaves when you use Stroke to Path.  But I can fix them, for a few nicely finished files, but I can't do that for every single pattern I make.  I could probably make the design using the Tiled Clones.  But when I "unclone" them, I think Inkscape does the same thing, with making extra nodes, etc.

Anyway, let me know if you want 1, nicely finished file, to practice with.  Just tell me which pattern.

It would be easier with more patterns

A couple of those last patterns I made are a smaller scale, and therefore, more units, if that's what you mean.  In Reply #38 and #39 are smaller than the previous patterns.  In Reply #40, I could easily make it smaller.

But I noticed that this design had a tiny hole repeated in each pattern, which may result in a problem for the printing.  ..... 

If you feel like telling me a few tips about  how to create such repeated patterns by myself, I could try and work on it.

Thank you for your kind help,

Gauthier(Belgium)

Yes, the design in Reply #38, the 10 px wide stroke version, there's a tiny hole that's repeated.  That's why I made the 12 px wide stroke version, and the 15 px wide stroke also does not have that hole.  Oh yes, and the design in Reply #40 has the small hole.  If it's a different design that has that kind of hole in it, it can probably be avoided too.  I just need to know which one you're talking about, to be able to fix it.

Well, I would have to know about your skill level with Inkscape, to begin to know what kind of tips will help you.  If you don't know Inkscape at all, it would take too long to write out how to do it.  I would suggest starting with some tutorials.  That seems to be the fastest way to gain basic skills.  I think the ones in the Quick Start section of the manual are the best for that.  http://tavmjong.free.fr/INKSCAPE/MANUAL/html/QuickStart.html  But there are plenty of other tutorials around.  I've collected what I think are the best ones on our Inkscape Tutorials page, which is the Home tab.

Also, note that there are several ways to approach making repeated patterns like this.  The technique I use might not necessarily be comfortable for someone else.  So learning Inkscape on your own will allow you to develop your own techniques.

Or if you have an idea about the kind of pattern you want, show me some examples, and I can try to make it.  Or those mathematical mandala designs you mentioned, I'll be glad to try that.

All best 

[Melodicpinpon]

Hello Brynn,

The one I prefere is the Pai1-3 that I first tested.
It looks random because of the transparency and the deformation., but it I can achieve the application, which passes through another operation, in order to have more divisions and a better 'softness', then it should look like on paper but on the shape with just some stretching.

Yes, I need some learning time by myself, it is not lazyness, I started to write my final work and have one month, even less.
but I'll be glad doing that whith the school in the back : )

For the mathematical mandalas we ll have to wait for the friend that carries the book, I'm glad you ask. The patterns I like, well I got this free puzzle pattern, and the friend for who I do this part created an NGO called puzzle asbl(because it goes about amputees matters), but the one I got is very thin. Wait, I send it for you, sothat you can see if you can change the width of the lines..

[Melodicpinpon]

I think this is it,
...well more parts would be needed: /

[Lazur]

I think this is it,
...well more parts would be needed: /

A simple puzzle pattern can be made quickly with a few tricks.
Maybe article worthy?


Not sure if that pattern would be good for the structure though.